The big fat religious thread...

Sup

I dont think there is a god, and I did beleave in jesus, i just think he was some crasy preacher man, I do not beleave that he had anythign to do with anything. I an agnostic/athiest (more leaneant toward the dark side) and I was just wondering why you people think there is, or isnt a god, explain. :rock:
 
Why do I think there is a God or Higher Power? I guess when I look at the world around me I have a harder time believing everything I see came from random chance.

I don't really have a specific idea of what I think God actually is but I think there is some kind of force behind creation. I think for some reason it's affect on the world is more subtle in modern times than it has been in the past but I think it's there.
 
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Why is it random chance OR God? I think you make a false dilemma. I don't understand why existence needs a creator as if order is an obvious implication of design, when in reality it's the other way around. I find the assumption that there must be a sentient being to have created existence to be highly absurd while the question of why a sentient being must be there to begin with a question that not enough ppl think about.

Existence just is, to ask why it is as opposed to is not, or who made it seems to miss the obviousness that existence is axiomatic. To be is to be something, and to be something is to have specific characteristics that define what you/it can and cannot do. Thus order is implict in reality, and w/o order you have nonsense, and nonsense isn't worth discussing.
 
ok don't castrate me or anything but here we go...

OK when i decided to be an athiest, I looked at the religions first, and why they are there. I thought of a reason, on how all it got started, and I came up with two, similar, and definatly fitting entertwined theories.

1. Religion was made as a form of control. Think about all the crime and atrocities that have happend over the years, exspecially back then. Now you need a way to control your poeple, to make them beleive there will be a ultimate punishment for robbing all those old people you see at the quckie mart. enter religion, passed down for centeries, interperted by those with the educational backgroud to percieve the message as they felt it was said. Now I know I have failed to elaberate, but this is not my strongest arguement, and I havent quite gotten it down pact yet.

2. Religion is the mean for a (heres where you will ban me..) uneducated group of men to determine why things work, without the aid of scientific knowedge. The romans did it with gods that held the fricken earth on their back, we have gotten a little smarter since then, but man still wants to be comfortable in the knowedge that he has mastered the universe, and he knows why he is here. In my opinion religion seems like a very easy answer to things. How did the universe get created...god did it. How did we go from having dinosaurs on the planet to it being ruled by us??? God did it. I mean you have to see a pattern here, we consider the romans gods to be funny as hell now, like why is their lightning?? Thor does it. Why does the earth not fall out of space??? Some dude holds it on his sholders. See the Point I am trying to make?? Religion was then, and still is today a way for an uneducated species to come up with expalanations for things they can truly not explain.

one last thing, how do you even know your religion is correct?? there are so many, yet you place all your stock in one.

And the last point I will make, to convey the easy choice idea, If I am wrong I go to hell, If I am right nothing happends. If you are wrong nothing happends, If you are right you spend eternal bliss in heavan (if you believe in heavan)

sorry for the long post, but I like good religious debates. feel free to ban me now.
 
You know I have been banned from 4 forums now for that arguement..its amazing.

I was comparing how we see the romans to the way todays religions might be concieved by future generations. I have met a lot of New age atheists as I call them, who feel everything has to be scientificly proved, to my knowledge not much that we believe has ever or will ever be completly proven. When I decided not to believe, my parents were not happy, but they understood and excepted my decision. Remember my last comment, about the ease of the choice involved. I am making the easy choice, that could be end up being a much harder choice with penalties.

I am right, nothing happends. You are right you go to heavan enjoy ;)
I am wrong, yep it will be hotter than were I am now. you are wrong...well not a damn thing happends except you are educated in that belief structure.
 
Sonic X said:
I can see your point vicman, but when you think of the entire universe being the sum of scientifical happenings and that is, our exsistance seems kind of lame/pointless. We just exsist because of whatever nature like or science reason. Then you can compare us to nothing more then extremely advanced species on the planet rather then the spiritual make up of some almighty being.
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And why does that make our existence lame? Instead of having something else give meaning to our existence we have the responsibility to do it ourselves. I find it immensely beautifull that there is an inherent order to existence and we as humans have the ability, through reason, to discover the laws that govern existence instead of being handed or told why things are. To me it isn't any less "magical" that we aren't created but rather evolutionary by products of a long chain of cause and effect. Does the amazingness of how stars come about cease once you understand the process? I don't think so. I find a lot more in the universe to awe about when I understand it. I like the quote by Einstein that goes something along these lines: "What is amazing about the universe is that we can understand it"
 
I agree with Vicman's last post. Regardless of how we came into being in, with or without a God, we are still a very significant part of the Universe because we have life on good ol' Earth that has advanced as far as it has.

I know my reasons posted above are annoyingly unscientific, more like an intuitive view on my part, but that's how I feel. I guess I'd compare the likelyhood of life starting and getting this far to winning Blackjack 1,000 times in a row. Again using an analogy like that isn't a good argument but that's how I tend to feel about it.
 
Think about it this way Video, if you have infinity to contend with it doesn't matter what the odd's are. If it's possible eventually it WILL happen.
 
mjalbert377 said:
The reason I think Adam and Eve's tale is just a figurative story is simple: After Cain killed Able, he was banished to wander the earth, where anyone he met would not shelter or help him. This suggests the idea of there being many other people/civilizations/populated areas other than Adam and Eve's abode.
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well, we have to understand one thing. the bible never takes adam or even as a fictional story. luke, paul, jude, and others refer to adam and even as our ancestors. as if they truly existed. soo, you either believe what the bible says, or you dont. if you believe that they are fictional, then you dont believe what the bible says. how could there be other people on the earth. well, for one, you have to remember that the ages of people back then are recorded to be several hundred years old. i think the oldest buy lived to be about 900 years old. so, within one persons lifetime they would see several generations. and, if people really did live long, then cain being rejected by people makes sense.
I believe the point of the story of Adam and Eve was to say that Man (A & E) disobeyed God after being tempted by the Devil. Then God discontinued his total protection of Mankind and set them loose to work for themselves and to toil and labor for the rest of their lives.

Feel free to disagree.
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again, you are partially correct with what the bible teaches. the bible teaches that we are under a curse until the disobedience is purged. but, like i said, it never makes room for adam and even to be fictional. i mean, look at luke 3:38. it is a jewish geneology. those were historically accurate. to see something like the son of phillip, the son of james, the son of mickey mouse... wasn't a common thing. actually, fictional people were never added into geneologies.
 
mjalbert377 said:
And as to the question of why Jesus did not do anything to stop the Romans: I believe he couldn't have. He was human, just like any other person. Before performing miracles, he always prayed to God the Father, asking Him to bestoy a miracle on some particular person. Jesus himself did not have the power. Instead, it was God the Father that was almighty and all-powerful.
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you are soo close to being right sometimes i want to agree with you but i have to stop myself short.

Phillip 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, [and] coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to [the point of] death, even the death of the cross.


see, Jesus had the authority but he laid it down in order to fulfill the requirements for the sacrifice which we needed. but, he could have used his authority if he wanted. he did have the power. but, using it would have voided out the 100% man that he needed to be when he went to the cross. after all, he was, and is, the fullness of God. look, after he left earth, he resumed his position. he does submit to the father, but he also has authority. you can find examples of that in revelations.

i know this might be over some of your heads right now, but i think mjalbert understand what i am saying.
When Jesus rose from the dead, it was his divine form that walked the earth. This accounts for his ability to walk through walls and rise into the sky miraculously. Now he was actually God, not a human with Godly conciousness.

Again, feel free to disagree or offer your own opinions. [/B][/QUOTE]
 
kK stoned said:
I'm Buddhist a bit, and atheist a bit.
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actually, if you ar buddhist, you are more athiest than anything.

but, you should stay open. there are things that will happen in your life which will make you seriously consider God. When those times come, keep your eyes open cause God gives evey single one of us a chance to know him.
 
Videodrome said:
Okay. So if you try to live a good life (even though that's not possible since we are flawed humans) and you accept Jesus' sacrifice then you get into Heaven? Sounds easy enough.
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nah, you dont even have to live a good life. well, let me clear it up just so that you understand what the bible teaches. basically, you are damned with sin. look it as an outfit. your clothes are stained and nothing can get rid of the stains. not even Clorox with bleach. the only thing that can happen is that someone can give you new clothes that are si-less (no stains). and, that is what Jesus offers. when he died on the cross, he died as a sinless man. he was perfect. the reason that he didnt stay dead is cause death is the result of sin. soo, there is kinda a loophole that he created for you to have forgiveness. if you allow his death to be yoru death, and you take up his life, then you can have sin-less clothes.

understand? i tried to put it into a simple illustration so you can kinda see what is going on behind the scenes.

anywho, if you accept Jesus, his spirit comes into your life. now, this is the real story behind salvation. see, jesus' title is lord, or, master. and, his spirit is your guide. if you follow the spirit in obedience, you are considered to be walking with him. now, we arent perfect and we stray constantly, but he knows your heart and he knows if you are walking in that intimitate relationship with him. if you are, you are considered "one of his sheep." if you arent, you will be cast away.

see, christianity isnt religion. it is a friendship with God. if his spirit does not come into your life once you ask him to enter your life, forgive you of your sins, and be your Lord, then he is a liar. but, if he does fill you with his spirit, then you are born-again cause you are no longer spiritually dead. and, it is like you are no longer blind cause everything starts to make sense. it is a wierd thing. acutally, the matrix movies have a paralell to christianity. it is obvious by the names trinity, zion and stuff. my point is, once you are born again, it is like what happened to neo when he was unplugged. everything just starts to make sense. it is as if you see for the first time. it is wierd.

now, what i meant by not having to live a good life is that all that really matters is that you are following the spirit's lead. maybe you first come to god as a rapist and a theif. well, it takes time for God to purify you. it takes time for him to renew your mind. if you are on the path with the spirit leading, then you are saved even though you might still be screwing up every now and then. but, with the spirit guiding, you eventually screw up less and less.

see, God doesnt demand perfection of you. he just wants you to be his freind. and, he is a very good friend and takes care of you better than you can take care of yourself. he pretty much came to heal the sick. and, without him, we are all sick.
 
Re: Sup

Caltor said:
I dont think there is a god, and I did beleave in jesus, i just think he was some crasy preacher man, I do not beleave that he had anythign to do with anything. I an agnostic/athiest (more leaneant toward the dark side) and I was just wondering why you people think there is, or isnt a god, explain. :rock:
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hey caltor! :rock:

are you ready?

now, i am not going to argue with what you believe. you belive that Jesus was a crazy preacher man. a lot of people believed that. that is why the killed him. but, you gotta realize that he himself claimed to be God. not only that, he claimed to raise himself from the dead, to be able to take away your sins, and to be able to save your soul from corruption. and, he had a very, very strong argument for why he was able to do these things. also, there are some kooky things in the prophecies that also add credibility to his story.

what exactly do you think he was crazy for? what do you not believe specifically? give me your specific problems and we can look into them.
 
Vicman said:
Think about it this way Video, if you have infinity to contend with it doesn't matter what the odd's are. If it's possible eventually it WILL happen.
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uhh, dont be misleading. we dont have eternity to contend with. we have the age of the earth to contend with and it isnt old enough to match the time frame required for evolution.
 
last post for the day...

gunblade said:
1. Religion was made as a form of control. Think about all the crime and atrocities that have happend over the years, exspecially back then. Now you need a way to control your poeple, to make them beleive there will be a ultimate punishment for robbing all those old people you see at the quckie mart. enter religion, passed down for centeries, interperted by those with the educational backgroud to percieve the message as they felt it was said. Now I know I have failed to elaberate, but this is not my strongest arguement, and I havent quite gotten it down pact yet.
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well, not really. the romans religion was more of a form of entertainment, not really control. the hindu religion is a search for answers and hope. mainly, religions are desires to find what we all know deep down inside... there is something more.

now, people have realized that there is power once a religion gets started and they corrupt it. but, Jesus was never about controlling this world. he let people come to him, he didnt force himself on anyone. and, he commanded us to be the humble ones turning the cheek.

now, i know that you are still working on this thought of yours. i just wanted to add a couple of points to it. keep doing your contemplations. i am sure that with enough info you will eventually find the truth...
2. Religion is the mean for a (heres where you will ban me..) uneducated group of men to determine why things work, without the aid of scientific knowedge. The romans did it with gods that held the fricken earth on their back, we have gotten a little smarter since then, but man still wants to be comfortable in the knowedge that he has mastered the universe, and he knows why he is here. In my opinion religion seems like a very easy answer to things. How did the universe get created...god did it. How did we go from having dinosaurs on the planet to it being ruled by us??? God did it. I mean you have to see a pattern here, we consider the romans gods to be funny as hell now, like why is their lightning?? Thor does it. Why does the earth not fall out of space??? Some dude holds it on his sholders. See the Point I am trying to make?? Religion was then, and still is today a way for an uneducated species to come up with expalanations for things they can truly not explain.
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actually, you are misinformed. now, i am only going to defend christianity here cause i know it to be the truth. other religions crmble rather easily.

over the last 2 thousand years, every wise man has tried to destroy christianity but they have failed. if christianity was for the uneducated, then it would have gone in the way of the roman mythology. but, it hasnt even come close.

further, you shouldnt be soo quick to think that scientist are the intellects here. lemme give you a real quick example. go to a thrift store and pull up a 10 year old science book. you will notice that a lot of things have been re-written. see, the scientific community finds evidence for something and claims is as truth. but, a few years down the road their "truth" falls apart and they have to rewrite things. it is pretty funny from the outside looking in.

many people are closed minded. they believe in one thing and reject everything else. religios people, philosophers, scientists... it doesnt matter. i guess people just dont like to admit that they may be wrong or that they dont know so they will close their eyes to everything except what they want to believe. seriously, have you ever listened to the jehovahs witnesses to see what they have to say? have you ever talked with a buddhist to see if he has a point? most people dont.

anywho, God is not for undeducated people at all. if you look for a creation/evolution debate, you wont see a lopsided debate with the evolutionist hammering the creationist. actually, it usually ends up a draw cause the creationist has hard evidence but no proof and the evolutionist has good possibilities with a lot of assumptions and many claims that have no substance. well, it ends up a draw unless the evolutionist makes some claims that only fly among the ignorant. i mean, if an evolutionist made some of their claims before someone who knows their stuff, they will be humiliated.
one last thing, how do you even know your religion is correct?? there are so many, yet you place all your stock in one.
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i have done my homework. if you want, i can go through evey major religion and show you how it crumbles. i am a sceptic and i did that when i first sought God. and, even after i found what i thought to be the truth, i still kept myself open to anyones story of what they thought was true. i dont know everything, but i know an awful lot.
And the last point I will make, to convey the easy choice idea, If I am wrong I go to hell, If I am right nothing happends. If you are wrong nothing happends, If you are right you spend eternal bliss in heavan (if you believe in heavan)
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but if i am right, you are damned. look, if God is God, and if you humble yourself and seek him, he is required to meet you by his own words...

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

give it a shot. it cant hurt.
 
ledByGod said:
uhh, dont be misleading. we dont have eternity to contend with. we have the age of the earth to contend with and it isnt old enough to match the time frame required for evolution.
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Don't be misleading yourself. I'm talking about the universe as a whole, and yes the age of the earth is enough for evolution to spit out human beings.
And please refrain from talking to me anymore on this subject. I was specifically answering Video's question. I have nothing more to discuss.
 
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